Are you censored on this forum

[Beach]

I have put my trip report on Hedo 111 and someone one on this board found some reason to not put it on. At first they put it on Hedo 11. Then all at once it was removed. I have e mailed Chris. No Ansewer/ I thought it was to put your thoughts. Maybe not. Was it becaused I compalained that a group of blacks acted like animals and showed no respected for others.>???

[hem06]

I have put my trip report on Hedo 111 and someone one on this board found some reason to not put it on. At first they put it on Hedo 11. Then all at once it was removed. I have e mailed Chris. No Ansewer/ I thought it was to put your thoughts. Maybe not. Was it becaused I compalained that a group of blacks acted like animals and showed no respected for others.>???

No.

http://www.4hedonism.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3821

[RealNGwen]

Not sure what you put in your report but I'm guessing someone didn'y like it.
You have to figure if the resort is full your going to have 500or so people and there's going to be an ass or 2. Actualy we ran into 2 of them but I hope you enjoyed the rest of your trip.

[EHB]

"A group of blacks acted like animals and showed no respected for others"...

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?!?!!?!?!?

THE RACIST, RUDE, IGNORANT REMARKS HAVE GOT TO GO!

Do you feel that you are showing respect to the members of this forum with this bullshit?

There is no misunderstanding on my part... !OH YES! I AM PISSED OFF WITH THIS ONE!

Why do you need to define the race of a group?!?!?!

What difference does skin color make?!?!?! What is the purpose of saying "a group of Blacks"?

If a group of people, or an individual like yourself, are assholes, then they are assholes!

CLICK HERE TO READ THE ASSHOLES TRIP REPORT

Perhaps you are the animal, since you are unable to find your own fucking thread!

No disrespect to other 4hedonism.com members.

My comments are directed to BEACH, and only BEACH.

Enough is Enough!

[Chris]

Maybe he should have said "a group of locals"

Local jamaicans are of african descent, to say so is not racist, and local jamaicans on day passes have frequently caused problems in the past. Frequently. Sexual assaults, rapes, just being pushy. As a matter of fact I think every time I have been there sometime during the week there was a problem with a local in on a day pass.

Now, is it wrong to imply that all blacks are rowdy and or disrespectful etc. Yes.

However, face it, 99% of the resort's overnight guests are white. That means that this group of locals stood out. Beach chose to identify them by their most obvious common characteristic. That doesn't make him racist. If Beach had said

"a bunch of local jamaicans" everyone would have known he was referring to people to dark skin. But somehow that would have been alright because he didn't mention they had dark skin? Does that make any sense how people can become so incensed over words but not thoughts?

Is it wrong to mention the color of someone's skin if you're mentioning them negatively? But okay to do so if you're mentioning them positively? "Barack Obama would be the first black president." Is okay to say, but why? Why say that instead of "Barack Obama would be one of the youngest presidents." or "Barack Obama would be the first president who was the son of a non-US citizen since." Why the fixation on skin color, and why is it not racist to explicitly point out the skin color of someone who has done well, but it is racist to point out the skin color of someone who hasn't done well?

Surely, one should strive to not judge, good or bad, based on the color of skin at all?

The point being, I don't have a problem with his post. I don't think he is racist. I think Beach simply wasn't expending brain power to make sure he was 100% politically correct when he posted, and since he is not running for office I don't think it is a big deal. I'm sure he didn't mean to offend anyone, and I'm sure he did not mean to imply that because the skin color of the people in question was darker that they were any more or less disrespectful than if their skin color had been lighter and they were doing the same behavior. Additionally I do not think he meant to imply that all people with dark skin are disrespectful or rowdy. Drunk white frat boys can be pretty disrespectful and annoying too. No race has a monopoly on being dumb.

So lets just relax, drink something, and realize that there is probably no malice in Beach's post. And of course in the future Beach could probably try to not characterize people by skin color, nor should anyone.

[RaviRav]

Well said Chris. I did NOT find any of "BEACH" report offencive. I am a dark male and of East Indian Decent. I am also from the Caribean (Trinidad & Tobago) and I agree that the Word "Black" is not offencive expecially when there are "Black Beach Weekend" - "Black Swingers Group" and "Miss Black Nude Pagent" at H3 and have been mentioned in many other threads.

"A group of blacks acted like animals and showed no respected for others"...

Now on the other hand the "anamals" part is a little Bigotry. However to each his own. I know that 4HEDO does not support Racist Behavior.

No one will spoil my fun 62 DAYS LEFT!!! YIPPIE.............

[EHB]

Now, I'm not trying to start any shit on here, nor do I come to this site to have political debates.

With all due respect Chris, do not try to analyze the point that Beach was trying to make, simplify his comment or attempt to imply that he was simply describing the group to the best of his ability.

It is wrong to refer to any human being as an "animal", regardless of their skin color.

The group in question was GOOD GIRLS GONE BAD.

Had Beach referred to a group of Jamaican locals as "animals", I would feel the same way.

What the hell do "99% of the resort's overnight guests are white", "local Jamaicans on day passes" and "Barack Obama would be the first black president." have to do with any of this?!?!?

Your analogies may be correct, just not in the context of this thread or the comment made by Beach.

This has nothing to do with being PC.

Does one really need to explain why they take offense when negative comments are made about ones race or skin color?

And RaviRav... "Black Beach Weekend" - "Black Swingers Group" and "Miss Black Nude Pagent"! Come on man!

As an African-American, I took complete offense to the "group of blacks acted like animals and showed no respected for others." comment.

In the trip report, he commented on the group being Black, true.

Was I offended by that? No.

It was the "animal" comment that was uncalled for.

Just as Beach was able to share his feelings about "a group of blacks acted like animals", I have the right to express my thoughts and feelings on the matter.

It is grossly apparant that he was calling Blacks "animals".

I don't sit here, reading posts on the forum, looking for racist comments, however, I do know them when I read them.

Whether or not any other "people with dark skin" are offended is irrelevant... I am.

For the record, "animal" is associated with racism because in times of segregation in the United States, racists used this, and other demeaning terms, to describe Black people.

From slavery to Katrina, there has been a long history, where persons of African descent, were depicted / referred to as "animals", and I say that it is time for the bullshit to stop!

[JAnewbies]

Ooooooooo... Sounds like Calgon needs to take some of you people away (lol)...

Here's the deal... Beach said he was 70. Let's all grasp the fact that 70 year old whites AND blacks lived in a different time than we do now. Racial lines were not only thicker when beach grew up... They were more like walls. This is NOT an excuse... it's a reason for why it was said that way.

I don't usually defend anyone other than myself on this forum... and believe me... I have to more than I would like to, and I will not defend beach, because I don't think he needs defending. Hang on my beloved Ebony Beauty, I am going somewhere with this...

I am almost 100% sure that beach would have refered to a group of white people doing the same thing as a bunch of "redneck animals" had they in fact been white. I think beach is from a generation where political correctness never existed.

A 70 year old black person would specify race if a group of white people were at the root of an offensive action as well. Back then, it was just normal. We may not think that particular "old school normal" way of describing people was "normal" in a good way, but never the less, it was normal.

I work with the public all day and have been told by older black customers that I am pretty cool for a white dude. While that is a complimentary statement the fact is... in my eyes... I have still been singled out as a white dude. They just see me that way.

Like Chris eluded to, them saying I am pretty cool for a white dude is OK for me, so how unfair would it be for me to be offended by the specification of my race, should they have said I was an asshole of a white dude.

I have to take the good with the bad. I have to realize that they just plain see me as a white dude... whether they are complimenting me, or insulting me. That's just their knee jerk way of identifying me... The "white dude"...

I think beach was using "his" knee jerk way of identifying the assholes (assholes in his opinion) in this situation.

Is it possible that beach is an asshole... Yep... Is it possible that beach is an OK guy (or even all around good guy)... Yep. Is it possible that he is 70 and just describing people, as people were described VERY COMMONLY (black OR white) in the days when his ways were set... Yep.

At any rate... beach may just have been using old school language on a new school forum, so we may want to consider that as we sit and judge him...

JA OUT................ Peace to all and oh yes... WOOHOO.........................

[EHB]

Oops... Posted twice

[EHB]

This thread reminds me of a Pastor Martin Niemoller quote:

"First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me...

and by that time no one was left to speak up."

I have a voice, and I am speaking up about this.

My dear friend JA, we have been members here at 4hedonism.com for over one year.

During this time, when I have been wrong, I allowed myself to be corrected.

When I have overreacted, I put myself in check.

When I have taken things out of context, I opened my mind and received clarity.

Always apologizing to my fellow forum members, and hoping that they viewed said apologies as humble and genuine.

Actually hoping that I was taking the Beach comment the wrong way, searching for a different perspective, I have read and re-read this thread.

Again, this has nothing to do with the trip report that Beach posted.

It was the follow-up post that offended and angered me:

Was it becaused I compalained that a group of blacks acted like animals and showed no respected for others.>???

JA, I have the utmost respect for my elders.

Beach's 70 years does not make him exempt from being educated about refraining from making hurtful comments.

Whether 7 or 70, a person(s) must conform, somewhat, when entering a diverse enviroment.

Beach is not some sheltered individual who is clueless.

He is a 70 year old person, who travels internationally, recently vacationed at Hedo and is online posting a trip report!

In any other scenario, on the surface, Beach would be cool as hell! I recognize this.

Franklin Thomas said it best:

"One day our descendants will think it incredible that we paid so much attention to things like the amount of melanin in our skin or the shape of our eyes or our gender instead of the unique identities of each of us as complex human beings."

There is nothing that anyone can say to me that can justify the use of "animal" when describing a person(s), especially a person(s) of color.

JA, I totally agree that Beach could have described a group of " white people doing the same thing as a bunch of 'redneck animals' ". That still would not have been right.

Whether someone feels the need to describe a person(s) by the color of their skin is not what this has been about.

What you are misunderstanding is that "redneck animals" would take on a completely different connotation if I made the comment since the term "redneck" also has a racial component, indicating poor, ignorant persons of European descent. Follow me?

Calling you a "White asshole" does not carry the same amount of historical venom as "a group of blacks acted like animals" carries.

Honestly, it does not.

The fact that Beach has been on this earth for 70 years and grew up in a different time does not change my opinion about his comment.

He may have grown up in a different time, but he is living in this one.

Ones age has nothing to do with ones ignorance.

In a letter to John Adams, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"Bigotry is the disease of ignorance, of morbid minds; enthusiasm of the free and buoyant. Education & free discussion are the antidotes of both."

Thank you Chris for allowing this "free discussion".

[smile]

I personally found the comment distastful. After I read it, my first thought was that EHB would also find fault. Rightfully so.

[JAnewbies]

Ebony...

I see the quote you added and I agree, that does add an extra nail in the coffin of the prospect of innocence... I did not catch that earlier.

I think I was giving a little latitude in light of the fact that some things that I say on here sometimes get spread out over un-intended teritory... hence landing me in the pile O shit I sometimes find myself in, resulting in the need for the ever popular "JA clarification"...

I guess I also blow off some of what he said, because if I read where you (or any other black person) refered to a bunch of white people as rednecks, I guess my personality would just not allow me to care enough to care. Does that make sense???

It's the old "I can't imagine being in your shoes... because my shoes are not like yours" thing going on. It's difficult for me to get fired up about something that hits close to home for someone else that, if it were aimed at me... I would not get fired up about if it hit close to home for me.

I might have also been sending him some leniency, because I have grandparents (still living and some passed away) that used to say things that would make your blood boil, but because I knew them and I knew the true lack of intended insult their words actually said with, I thought his words may have had the same innocence.

At any rate, I see your point and I did before as well, but not as well before. I was maybe trying to say the guy deserves a punch in the nuts, as opposed to a public stoning...

I don't worry that you would think I am defending his words, because you know me and you know that wasn't my intention. I was more defending the idea that he may not have "meant" those words as we all read them.

Maybe Moore will catch this thread and post soemthing that will take the heat off of me (lol)...

[nathlms]

It was the follow-up post that offended and angered me:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach
Was it becaused I compalained that a group of blacks acted like animals and showed no respected for others.>???


I, too, found offense to that statement. While I understand the deal with his age and the times in which he grew up, questioning if that statement was why his report was not on the forum also shows his awareness the words were offensive. It is unfortunate that we are even having this discussion but it just shows that words still strike a chord when used in that context.

[figgy]

questioning if that statement was why his report was not on the forum also shows his awareness the words were offensive.

Spot on.

Quoting Martin Niemoller is a bit OTT though in this context EBH, besides, the pastor had a few skeletons in his cupboard.

Love talking 'serious' issues, but I wonder if the Hedo forums are the right place for it.

Conundrum: If referring to humans as animals is offensive, is it wrong to say, " the soldiers fought like tigers"? or, " the people followed like sheep"?

Just throwing the cat amongst the pigeons. With unreserved apologies to our furry and feather friends.

[EHB]

JA: Thanks for taking time to review the complete comment. You know, most days things roll off my back, and other days... Well, let's just say I'm the wrong one to fuck with! LOL Hey! It was written. With or without malice. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the comment, it is in the past. It is a new day, and I am moving on to counting down my June trip! Woo Hoo! Really happy that we are friends and that we can chat about EVERYTHING! Love ya!




nathlms: My sentiments exactly. He knew what he was saying, and that it would offend. Point blank. The discussion is unfortunate, however the comment needed to be addressed. Don't ever want my fellow forum members to feel the need to censor themselves out of fear of reprisal. I do not censor myself here. I know that, on those rare occassions ;-), when I write something that a forum member disagrees with, is offended by or simply does not like, I will hear about it, and rightfully so. Hmmmmm... Oh well... Back to chatting about the quad pool and body shots! LOL




figgy: Over the top? Perhaps. Certainly not inspired by the person or his beliefs (earlier or later), simply touched by the poem. Separate. Sure, I could have quoted "If You Don't Stand Up For Something, You Will Fall For Anything", however, I felt the Pastor Martin Niemoller apropos in this context, and that it reflected my feelings yesterday, regardless of his tainted history. Therefore I used it. Thank you for your input though. Those here who know me, know why I would choose that quote over any other. figgy, we have to get to know one another better! OK... "Serious" chat is not for the Hedo threads, which is why this thread was removed from Hedo II / Hedo III, and placed in the Site & Forum Feedback area. I agree that we did not come here for this. Will try my best not to allow written words, on this forum, to affect me so. Oh! Regarding your "Conundrum", without revisiting the ugly historical issues regarding "animal" references and African-Americans, I am unable to properly reply. Know that in all other references, those without historical racial implications, for ANY race, I have no issue with animal analogies. Clearly, the Beach comment was not a "human" analogy but a Black one. Uh oh! Here I go again. See what happens! I can't help myself. Didn't I say that today was a new day, and that I was moving on? LOL M - - U - - S - - T - - S - - T - - O - - P - - !!!!! ----- LOL Will take the suggestions of Chris and JA... Calgon and a drink! Well, not Calgon, but you get the idea. LOL




Beach: While I was angered and appalled by your comment, I harbor no hard feelings. Open, honest discussion is good, and your comment allowed that. Not that I want you to do it again! PLEASE DO NOT! LOL Just thanking you for this ONE TIME (hint, hint) discussion. LOL I hope we meet on the forum again, and can chat about favorite Hedo drinks or how great it must be to travel to Hedo at the age of 70!




Chris: Again, thanks for having an area on the 4hedonism.com site where members may address such issues.




Errbody Else: HEDO III JUNE 2008 BABY! TWO MONTHS, AND SOME CHANGE, TO GO! SEE YOU THERE!




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